
Hey Nahjor,
I'm working on a roguelike of my own, and I respect you as a designer, so I thought I'd ask what you thought about some design decisions I'm considering.
I want the game to have a strong focus on tactical combat like yours does, but I'm going to have a world map and multiple dungeons like ADoM.
The first thing I wanted to ask is what do you think of a roguelike game where there are no consumable items, and everything you find is permanent equipment?
I realize that this is the opposite of what you did with your game, but I think that works much better in a single dungeon where there's no turning back than it would in a place with multiple dungeons where the player can backtrack.
I don't want players to ever have to grind or farm, and I think that farming would become the ideal solution for players if they can do so to keep getting healing potions (or whatever) until they're well enough stocked that they'll be pretty safe. It certainly happens a lot in, say, Angband and its variants.
What I'm thinking of to fix this problem is to make it so you only find worn items in dungeons, and then I'll put a mechanic in place to make it so returning to the same area repeatedly is unlikely to give the player any better equipment than what they have. In place of consumables, the player will just use their stamina and magic points as the resources that need to be managed, and it will only be possible to fully restore these outside of dungeons.
Does this sound like it would be a good idea? Am I throwing the baby out with the bathwater by removing consumables to reduce the need for farming? Did you avoid putting weapons and armor in your game for simplicity's sake, or was there another reason?
What I'm planning to do with stamina and magic points is make it so they regenerate fairly quickly, but as the player uses them in dungeons, they become exhausted, meaning their maximum stamina and magic points go down, and cannot be restored until the player leaves the dungeon.
My goals with this are:
1. To make it so fights with weaker enemies are non-trivial. Even if the player's life is not endangered by weaker enemies, they'll have a harder time with the dungeon's boss if they become heavily exhausted on the way there.
2. To reward not only winning fights, but winning efficiently. A player who wins against an enemy while taking minimum damage and using as little magic as possible will be less exhausted for the rest of the dungeon than they would be if they took a lot of damage and used unnecessarily powerful spells.
Does this idea sound like it would work to you? Does it sound like it would be fun, or tedious?
Lastly, would you mind if I "borrow" the charging mechanic from Mage Guild? I've wanted to do Megaman style charge-up attacks in a roguelike since a long time ago, and I really like your implementation of the concept.
I'm beyond flattered, and I'd
I'm beyond flattered, and I'd be glad to throw my two cents in.
As far as removing consumables...let me first say this: sacred cows need to be slaughtered. I'm an iconoclast by nature, and I'm (almost) always in favor of turning convention on its head. I'm also a big fan of removing grinding, and I think you're absolutely on the right track by making grinding unprofitable, thus removing the desire to do it. MageGuild does this by making anything that spawns after the initial creation of the level not drop items.
The thing that's nice about consumables is that they introduce a couple of strategic elements: the first is figuring out the right time to use a given item, and the second is that a consumable can radically alter your level of power (which you must take into consideration when planning what fights to get into). As a designer, they let you introduce powerful effects that you only occasionally want the player to have access to (like, say, Genocide in NetHack).
That said, I think the idea of a roguelike without consumables is a cool idea, if you can find means of replacing the above strategic elements with similar ones, or with enough other strategic things that they aren't missed. So, in short, I'd go for it, just gotta do it mindfully.
MageGuild doesn't have weapons and armor firstly because it's a game about wizards, and wizards traditionally don't carry a sword and platemail. Equipment of any kind was a very late-comer to the party, in fact. The other reason equipment is minimized in MG is because (as previously noted) I like breaking tradition, and since equipment is usually 80+% of a character's power, I wanted to explore how a roguelike with very little equipment would play out.
I definitely like your goals, with a couple of cautions. MG tries to do some of the same stuff; there are few true windshield kills in MG; even at higher levels, lower level enemies can be quite dangerous. The catch is, and MG catches quite a bit of flak for this, that your character never feels like it really grows in power. The other thing you need to watch is how much player-energy goes into each fight. If you've ever played a Final Fantasy game, and gotten frustrated with having to deal with 6,000 generally-not-dangerous-but-time-consuming fights between point A and point B...yeah. It's fine to make the player have to use efficient tactics on each fight, just gotta make sure it doesn't go overboard.
And as far as the charging thing goes, I'm actually not the first one to put that in a roguelike (AFAIK, Slash's very cool MetroidRL was the first), and I have to give credit for the idea to the old World of Lone Wolf gamebooks, which are extremely dated by now, but were amazing when I was a kid. So, by all means, borrow away. :)
Thanks for the quick reply!
Thanks for the quick reply! I'm glad to hear that you like my ideas!
One thing I'm considering for replacing consumables is adding equippable items that can cast a given spell a certain number of times per day. The day only changes when the player is outside any dungeon, so it would give the player a finite number of uses of that spell on any given excursion. Maybe that would be able to mimic the resource management aspect of consumable items without forcing the player to waste time replenishing them, or allow the player the ability to farm them. The only ones that would be charged and usable for that day would be the ones they were wearing at the end of the previous day, so there would be no sense in stockpiling them, unlike healing potions. Do you see any problems with that idea?
I want to keep it limited. At no point in time should the player character's equipment be more important than their abilities. Somewhere around 1-3 spell enabling items sounds about right to me. I'm going for 26 magic spells, and 26 non-magic skills in the game (so one of each type can be associated with an alphabet key for easy use). Maybe I should go with 2 rings, one on each hand for that? What do you think?
If you're at all interested, I've posted a bit on what I'm thinking of and what I want to do with player skills here: http://www.roguetemple.com/forums/index.php?topic=611.0
Originally I was thinking of making item spells an enchantment any piece of equipment could have, but I think that that would inevitably lead the player to carrying around two full sets of equipment - one that they cast from, and then another with passive bonuses that they use once the first set is exhausted for the day.
Anyway, I'll do my best to avoid the Final Fantasy problem you mentioned of thousands of meaningless battles between any two meaningful points. Just due to the nature of what I'm doing, "windshield kills" as you called them will be possible, but I'll try to render them harmless. The player shouldn't get any benefit from them, because enemies that are lower level than the player will give no experience points whatsoever, and I'm going to make enemy-dropped equipment be much lower quality than the equipment that's generated lying around the dungeon floor, so there won't be any sense in farming for items.
I think it's strange, by the way, that you say Mage Guild has gotten criticism for how little character growth you get over the course of the game. Sure you're not steamrolling enemies by the thousands, but I've always thought that the way your character's playstyle changes, and the new tactics that open up over the course of the game are far more meaningful and interesting than what you see in, say, Angband, where you start out hitting bad guys with 100 hp for 10 damage, and later progress to hitting bad guys with 1000 hp for 100 damage.
Anyway, I'm going to make the supply of gold in the game finite - no randomly generated enemy will ever drop any. I think this will give me more freedom to make interesting, powerful items available for sale. Normally in a roguelike, that would mean that the player would have the option to make the game much easier if only they have enough patience to earn them through grinding. What I'm going for with this is having the player make the decision whether to buy an item now that will make their current problems much easier, but that will cut them off from getting a much better item later on, or to save up to get the best possible items later in the game.
Do you see any potential problems with these ideas? Do they sound like they would make for a fun game?
Thank you again for your time.
I like the idea of usable
I like the idea of usable abilities being tied to equipment. You could also tack on some sort of thing where (say) once you use an item's power, you can't remove the item until the power's been recharged (to help combat the multiple sets of equipment issue).
26 skills seems like a lot, although I suppose it depends on how many of those a given character has access to at any given time, how different they are, how relevant to gameplay each one is, etc. Certainly something that can be made to work, just a matter of doing it right.
MG catches flak not for the character not changing, but for the character not growing in absolute power (or, at least, not showing that growth). In Angband, as you noted, relative power is fixed. Against an enemy average for your depth, it takes N hits to kill them, etc. However, absolute power is another matter; you can get extremely low-depth enemies at deep levels. Making something that used to be dangerous into a windshield kill shows just how much your character's grown. Since MG's depth-spawning algorithm is a little less swingy than Ang's, this doesn't happen as much. Plus, even some low-level enemies can be lethal, if you're not careful.
The fixed quantity of gold thing is a pretty interesting idea. It definitely seems to encourage scouring every last crevice for gold, depending on how said gold is distributed. It also seems like it might lend itself to the "too awesome to use" problem, where you never buy anything for fear that you might discover something better immediately after you do so. Or, if the list of things you can buy is fixed and known, it could lend itself to a very clear-cut case of what should be purchased. Certainly not pitfalls that can't be overcome, though. :)